Police raid headquarters of Anarchist RNC protesters

With guns drawn........ ????

A group is meeting, didn't see in the report where they had weapons, they were just meeting.

Thanks Green pagan for the advice.

Anarchist are now organizing? What is this world coming to.

LOL!

Disciplined Complexity Theory? Chaos Control Process?

Where do people get this ridiculous notion that organization is anathema to anarchists?

GO READ A DAMN BOOK, PEOPLE.

The wikipedia portal has useful information, too.

#8.3 - You're right. I just educated myself a little bit and find myself as having anarchist tendancy. Like the scrum team in agile software development, this is an idea I can get behind. Disband command.

wikipedia, now there's a reliable source.

Tens of thousands of us do observe May Day. There's no substitute for that.

blinkin,

The wikipedia is not considered a reliable post due to the fact that people can go in there and change information. A book on the other hand is unlikely to change; its already in black/white prose.

If a high school/college student uses wikipedia in any of their works its an automatic failure grade. At least where I went and do now in class. There just needs to be a need to read the original in a scholarly journal or book.

That is my opinion, why your remark on reading wikipedia is not taken seriously.

You are right it has useful information only if it gets you to question more and look for the answers other then there in wikipedia.

Books don't change when new information is released. Anybody with money behind them can publish a book. A book is not trustworthy by dint of what it is.

Wikipedia has its drawbacks, as well, but it has undeniable strengths. Anyway, much of what's on it is taken from books.

I don't expect people to agree with me, just to think outside the box and hold the world around them to serious scrutiny.

Out of curiosity, what have you read so far?

Ya'll go right ahead, I don't waste my time with wikipedia. it can be changed too easily to be reliable.

And if you reference anything in my class using wikipedia I will fail you. Its books, journals.

Because books are infallible by dint of being books? Because the information from books only matters in the context of the book, and immediately ceases to be true when it's copied elsewhere?

Sure, for class work, Wikipedia is a tool to find sources, not a source in and of itself. But we're not in your class, so we don't really care enough.

Very good post Maxwell. First example that comes to mind of books not being infallible, Million Little Pieces. I'm sure all of you have heard that.

If you could get knowledge for free, teachers would be out of a job.

No they wouldn't, administrators would out of a job. Teachers would probably do it for free.

Hey Blinkin

Or how about a cabin in Idaho, oh wait that's been done already. You remember it? Randy Weaver and Ruby Ridge? Where they shot and killed a boy and his mother after attempting to enlist the father Randy Weaver to work as an FBI informant and when he wouldn't do it they attempted to entrap him for sawing off a shotgun. Yeah, well . . . . looks like the trying to work things out on your own isn't such a good idea either, what to do what to do. . . . .

Sorry, I had to say it before someone else did. But honestly Blinkin the government has basically thrown alot of the rights we were guaranteed in the Constitution right out the window in recent years and too many Americans are OK with that. Really? Well, I will tell you I am not okay with that. I don't like the fact that we seem to be slipping ever so close to the edge of fascism. There are real costs to actions like this to you and me Blinkin. You seem to think this is THEIR problem when this could very quickly become YOUR problem depending on who exactly gets to wield these new powers they've taken. It may not be so long from now when that is your door they are busting down with a secret warrant because someone that doesn't like you calls and tells them they think you may be this or that.

We should all pay very fricken close attention to this situation. Maybe you're right Blinkin maybe there was some specific threat made and the police are simply acting to prevent it. Maybe it's totally politically motivated and they don't want the show tainted by protesters, you know like in China during the recent Olympics. So close now. . . . just a little farther to go and we could slide right off into oblivion.

Look, I'm only pointing to possibilities like many others but I personally have a chill running through me after reading that story. I hope you are right Blinko, I really do.

Blinkin, thanks for an entertaining Sunday morning. I hope you don't take yourself as seriously as you appear to.

Seriously though, you're kind of thinking could lead to ANYBODY who doesn't fit the current definition of normality being subject to arrest. What happens when the other side takes over and decides to use these unconstitutional powers against you?

Absolutely! America- a Nation of Whiners! Crying about their mortgages, the cost of food, price of gas, etc. It's pitiful. Just for whining they should be shot!

Oh and thanks! I had no idea that anarchy was politically correct these days. ;o)

As a self-styled anarchist, none of you know what the hell you're talking about. Familiarize yourself with anarchist political theory and anarchist history before you say stupid things.

Maxwell,

Are all self-styled anarchists so repetitive and quick to judge? "Read a @!$%#ing book" Not one of your best posts, as well as being the essence of all your posts on this thread.

none of you know what the hell you're talking about

If I wanted to get people to understand my position here, I'd probably start with a quick, multi-point primer, then suggest some websites.

My opinion of today's anarchist? A person who enjoys hurling invectives while disassociating. Thanks.

I'm not the one making incorrect assertions. Given the nature of the assertions, I have no reasonable expectation that anything I could say on the matter would be seriously considered.

Though, I have let my frustrations get the better of me. I apologize for this.

Still... I've taken the time to educate myself on "both" sides of U.S. politics, and as such, I have some semblance of a clue as to what I'm criticizing. I guarantee you that nobody that's trashing these activists has read Kropotkin, Bakunin, Black, Goldman, Chomsky, Bookchin, Ward, Vaneigem, Debord, or anything about them.

So Maxwell... please enlighten us. Make us smarter. Perhaps a dialog should be opened giving the anarchists perspective. You might be just the person to tell it from their side. I would be interested in your take on it. There is so much rhetoric out there with both sides inflaming the situation. A calmer look at it might be helpful for those who don't understand and look at the protesters with derision.

To everone: Nothing is gained by inflammotory comments. How but an honest discussion here without all the extraneous noise.... just a thought.

Here's some bullet points:

-Anarchism / anarchy and organization are not mutually exclusive. Anarchy does not mean chaos.

-Anarchism has a long history, which includes respected philosophers and writers. It's not just middle class white kids with dirty clothes and weird hair that hate your freedom or whatever.

-It's about true liberty.

-While a small portion of anti-authoritarians are capitalists (calling themselves anarcho-capitalists, or voluntaryists), anarchists oppose capitalism, as it creates a society in which the workers are separated from the means of production. Ruling class, upper class, petit-bourgeoisie, proletariat, etc.

-By its very nature, the state is oppressive.

-Racism, sexism, egocentrism, patriotism/nationalism, capitalism, colonialism, imperialism, consumerism, corporatism: all are tools of the ruling class.

-You have the right to make choices for yourself, I have the right to make choices for myself. You have the right to give others the power to make choices for you, I have the right to do the same. You do not have the right to push your leaders on me, nor do I have the right to push mine on you.

-When those who claim the power to write, interpret, and enforce laws don't follow the laws that they put forth, or subvert the idea(s) on which those laws are based, they no longer have any legitimacy.

This isn't much. I am not representative of all anarchists anymore than you and you and you are representative of all that claim your particular "party" or ideology. Though it's not the ultimate resource for everything ever, Wikipedia's portal on anarchism is very in-depth.

They want to exist outside society, and that's where they belong.....outside society. I think prison fits the bill.

Hey that's what South Africa did to Nelson Mandela for 30 years. You hit it right on the head! The U.S. now has the biggest Gulag operations in the world. We even sanction torture in our prison systems. Dare you be caught in one the internal violence is so out of control that we can now prove that anyone who flies into or out of this country is a terrorist because they might be able to make a weapon out of a hair spray can.

Heil Bush! Heil Bush! The killing commander in chief. We have a certified war criminal running this country who would just love to toss anyone who dares protest into his gulag. Opposition to bad policies automatically makes all democrats suspected anarchists! Why? Cause if your not with Bush your not a patriot.

Just like those DNC protestors as well as the those that were illegally caught up in dragnet cop behavior, you are considered a criminal if you show up to protest and the system wants to make you an example. Dare not protest. Dare challenge the system and we will beat you down.

This is a classic example of the kind of bigots that rule this culture. Our government which is supposed to be our servant has instead been taken over and used to terrorize anyone who steps out of bounds, using those tactics to keep others in line.

This is timeless. It was what the 60's was about and it was why Martin Luther King had to die.

The U.S. now has the biggest Gulag operations in the world

Source?

Anarchism / anarchy and organization are not mutually exclusive. Anarchy does not mean chaos

You must have changed the meaning of the word anarchy. All of the definitions I've seen use the word chaos in them.

anarchy means freedom, but freedom is not a license for chaos.

Sez Wheel.

Rational anarchy has the capability of being a powerful force in the world. There is only one thing stopping it from happening, most people aren't capable of rationality. That said, anarchists can most certainly join in mutually beneficial enterprises, it's called enlightened self-interest and it can, and does, draw anarchists together.

You guys @!$%#ing about organized anarchists reminds me of an old joke:

One criminal to another:"I don't know why everyone complains about organized crime, law enforcement is organized ain't it?"

I'd suggest that people who make up new meanings for words might not be a model of rationality.

1 a: absence of government b: a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c: a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government

Anarchy is freedom...

Ok, you found one.........darn it!!

I'd suggest that people who make up new meanings for words might not be a model of rationality.

Anarchy (from Greek: αναρχία anarchía, "without ruler")

Reading is fun.

blinkin'

Illegal, secret warrant raids and police intimidation could be called lawlessness too.

I'll take freedom over laws any day.

Making shared agreements and abiding by them isn't contrary to anti-authoritarian ideas.

Its when power structures, like British Common Law (wasn't too bad) until it was taken over by the royalist, ruling class and imposed, without the options of shared commons anymore.

Note, that some of the strongest anti-authoritarian communities are hiding away in the nooks and crannies of jolly old England.

Hi! We've invaded North America, (First Nations) taken all of your best lands, resources etc. and set up a system (Madison) that is designed to give advantages to the educated property class of Europeans. Imagine 200 years ago when one in 10 people had the equivalent of a high school education and how easy it has been to keep the lie rolling in a country full of unempowered workers who have long been kept in the dark of the motives of those they have always been trained to preen upon.

Less than 5% of this country have most of the wealth or institutionally organized memories. Indoctrination patterns here are quite clear. Be a good little patriot (Mr. and Mrs. cannon fodder) and we will feed you SUV's and a little piece of the economic spoils. I just love the fact that it is common knowledge that the advertising industry has discovered the powerful impacts of dopamine on humans and how an entire society has been played as fools over our innate behavioral patterns to need more and more and more. Let's all get high on dopamine stimulation rushes (consumption of food, cars, TV entertainment etc).

Is it possible to have law as men know it without leaders/rulers? To me it wouldn't see so.

I think we'd quickly find ourselves falling to the laws of nature. Survival of the fittest, could get pretty ugly or could be pretty Utopian, if only we weren't men. Even within other primates and for that mammals of all kinds that live in groups, there is always a leader. Interesting to think about though. I'd love to hear what others think.

I see too many examples of people that don't fall under the ugly heading of "human nature" to believe that it's one-sided. We have a propensity toward decency, and to douchebaggery. Given that the ruling class, in any configuration or location, has socialized aspects of the latter to their own benefit casts further doubt. I don't deny the difficulty in achieving such a situation, but difficulty does not equal impossibility, nor does it justify inaction / dismissal.

Homo sapiens may be an animal, but the social construction of other species is only relevant to those species. Instead of cynically using the actions of creatures in circumstances far removed from our own to justify laziness, we should look forward and try to socialize a higher ethic. Things such as honesty, fairness, respect, critical open-mindedness, etc.

but difficulty does not equal impossibility, nor does it justify inaction / dismissal.

Excellent point Maxwell and one worthy of consideration for certain, I can see that simple statement if put into action would advance us in many areas.

Keep talking like that blinkin, they'll be kicking in your door next for smoking s*#&@.

Details of the search warrant have not been released. This would indicate that more of these actions are planned. I am sure that the search warrant will be made public at some point.

I'll bet you're also sure that the administration did a bang up job in Iraq, and New Orleans.

Blinkin, this country was founded on a distrust of government. Dissent is as American as apple pie, and it's our duty, not just our right to stand up and tell the government when they are overreaching their authority, which they have clearly done in this case.

...this country was founded on a distrust of government. Dissent is as American as apple pie, and it's our duty, not just our right to stand up and tell the government when they are overreaching their authority, which they have clearly done in this case.

I think we can agree on this.

Your understanding? From what source? IF it's true?

I want to see the probable cause and the search warrants for this raid before I think they DIDN'T overreach their authority. Two sides every coin.

The police are not jack-booted thugs. They were only following orders.

I'm serious.

The finger should be pointed higher up. The police were used as pawns.

aren't we always? no one wants us around until they NEED us then they're pissed that we weren't in their hip pocket. all they do is @!$%# about us until they NEED us then they @!$%# because we don't fall over and kiss their ass when they call for us to come running. when we can't MAKE the law fit their wishes to get back at or get even with someone then we're just crooked and didn't want to do anything because we're just lazy.

Very soon police are going to have to make some hard choices. They are being used as pawns by politicians, that's true. It's also true that they know what they're doing when they do it, including when they do something wrong.

The police are not jack-booted thugs. They were only following orders.

Just following orders. I think you missed the irony.

Sgt. IronHorse-

First, I don't believe all police are "jack-booted thugs" I believe, based on this article, that these police officers acted in that manner however.

From the article:

While no one was arrested, the group said police temporarily detained and photographed at least 50 people who were inside the building.

Can you tell me under what authority can they do this? If they were diing something wrong, arrest them.

I know the 4th amendment is just a quaint anachronism these days, but this just seems to be a pre-emptive strike designed to intimidate citizens from expressing their 1st amendment righst.

So what secret database are those pictures going into now? They haven't been arrested (yet). Are they on a terrorist watch list now? This is the America you want? This is what you put your life on the line for? Does the constitution mean nothing anymore?

Maxwell D. : This isn't Argentina. Nobody was "disappeared." A warrant was issued by a court covering a location. Like it or not, it was lawfully executed. When I say the police were following orders, I mean someone in the judicial branch handed down a warrant that demanded the search of a specific address. I work in the courts and I've seen many warrants issued. Our courts are granted this power.

The specifics of the warrant have not been released. That raises some flags. And, yes, it does sound odd that "suspects" were photographed yet faced no charges. This can be challenged--successfully, even.

But let's not herald the dawn of fascism yet. Italy knows the real thing. No one has pushed any of these American anarchists out the window to his death. (This happened in Italy in the aftermath of the Bologna train station bombing. Anarchists were rounded up and tortured. Dario Fo's "Accidental Death of an Anarchist" exposed one such incident. We've seen nothing analogous to the Red Brigades or Baader Meinhof gang here in a long time.) Let's bear in mind what real abuses look like.

I mean someone in the judicial branch handed down a warrant that demanded the search of a specific address.

Someone has to ask for that warrant first. Courts don't just go "Oh, here's a warrant for this address.. go see what's up." Well, they're not supposed to. Which comes back to: Why was there a warrant? And, who requested it?

carobear,

This is what real abuses look like. Because it's not as bad as it could be, or has been, doesn't diminish what it is. It is real abuse.

Prosecutors and district attorneys request these warrants, courts issue them, and police execute them.

That is the way our process works. I have seen it in action for some 15 years (mostly involving drug complaints in NYC).

If a warrant was violated--say it was issued for a house, but not for a garage that sits on the homeowner's property, any evidence seized from that garage that was improperly searched will be thrown out, will be deemed inadmissible. The constitutional rights of our citizens are protected by the courts.

The sky is not falling.

Yes, that is the way it works. But, the warrant has to shown to the defendants at the time. It can't be "we'll show it to you later", which is basically what I see happening. That breaks the system of how it works. Unless I missed, or misunderstood something.

Blinkin

they're supposed to have the warrant and present it at the time of the raid. This raid was a fishing expedition and the warrant will be written latter. THAT'S ILLEGAL. You seen to have no problem defending any illegal action made by the cops. It's thinking like that which is allowing our country to slide into a fascist oligarchy.

The system is tilted from top to bottom. "A judge knows what is in the warrant" is not reassuring, especially in light of the recent incident where a Maryland sheriff's SWAT team murdered the mayor's dogs.

In that case the police lied and claimed they had a no-knock warrant, but it turned out that not only did they not have one, they hadn't even asked for one.

The fact that they had a regular warrant should have included the kind of oversight that gave pause before hitting the mayor. At least long enough to line up their ducks in a tighter formation.

Some judge signed that warrant but the light never clicked on, obviously.

They had a regular warrant, but their assertion was that since the mayor's mother in law happened to look out the window and see armed men storming the house, that justified them busting in the door guns blazing. You know, to prevent them from flushing 30 pounds of pot down the toilet :)

I know what you are saying Brian, and I've been all over that story.

What I am getting at is that if I had put my John Hancock on that document knowing whose home they were going into I would have for damn sure made certain that my political slip wasn't showing and that there was no chance that it would. If hand holding those meatheads through that raid was not an option I would not have signed such a politically risky warrant.

Nothing ever happens to these people to make them accountable for their actions (unless they are stupid enough to do it to a politician).

As to the secret warrants, the probably don't want to give away what they are really looking for.

Too damn bad if they don't want to give away what they're looking for. The warrant system was created to ensure that all searches and seizures were legal. Therefore the defendants are required to see it. They can't do anything about it, but they have to see it. This "We'll show it to you when we're good and ready" is bullcrap, and completely goes against the entire thing. At least with warrantless wiretapping we knew that there isn't a warrant to be found. -_-

blinkin'

there's a difference between making a warrant public and providing the people who's home is being raided with the warrant. It's a requirement of the law to provide the warrant...first! not make it up after the raid.

Nails, screws, bricks, sticks, poles, and maps of town are on the list of things to be seized. Why? The warrant doesn't say. We can only speculate that they are going to construct an illegal tree house.

But did they feel pushed into it? Because of the pre-emptive raids, we'll never know that will we blinkin.

maybe he's a keen observer of humans and has noticed that, when pushed, they tend to push back.

Newsviners on the ground...Yay!!! I'm looking forward to your coverage. Good luck.

Thanks Redruby...

Both Stacy and Ben were at another meeting in Minneapolis this afternoon. They both should have something up hopefully tonight, definitely tomorrow.

This is absurd. Read a book.

Why so condescending?

Why so condescending?

Maybe he read a book-- but it was one you don't approve of? :-)

Touche. =)

Any improper seizures will be thrown out, any improper arrests expunged. Only lawfully executed orders will be upheld. The courts and the police have a burden to demonstrate the propriety of their actions.

Arrests of protesters in NYC during the 2004 conventions that were unsupported were thrown out. When the police file a complaint, they must be prepared to support their claims with evidence. Failing this, the arrests cannot stand.

Any improper seizures will be thrown out, any improper arrests expunged. Only lawfully executed orders will be upheld. The courts and the police have a burden to demonstrate the propriety of their actions.

Arrests of protesters in NYC during the 2004 conventions that were unsupported were thrown out. When the police file a complaint, they must be prepared to support their claims with evidence. Failing this, the arrests cannot stand.

By the time all that happens those after the fact proved innocent protesters were denied their right to speak freely. The damage already done, those voices already silenced. My opinion.

That's not all the point Carobear. For example, get arrested on Friday evening of a holiday weekend, stay in jail till Tues. Doesn't really matter if the charges are dropped or dismissed by da or judge.

The arrestee, in NY state anyway, must be arraigned within 72 hours. This is inviolable, a state mandate. He cannot be held from Friday to Tuesday without cause.

Ever heard the expression "go wake up a judge"? Extraordinary measures are taken to protect the rights of citizens. Arraignments are conducted days and nights, weekends and holidays. The criminal courts of NYC operate seven days a week, 365 days a year.

I'm not disputing that the process is cumbersome and takes too long. But basic rights are protected.

72 hours is 3 days Carobear. Sat, Sun, Mon. Holiday weekend figures into it. And if the person is denied the right to protest how are their rights protected? If the intent of the arrest was to deny the person their right to protest who engaged in criminal activity?

That's a whole lot of trust in the system to not do the kind of @!$%# they're doing right now.

By the time all that happens those after the fact proved innocent protesters were denied their right to speak freely. The damage already done, those voices already silenced. My opinion.

Police in cities hosting the RNC have a track record of doing this. Charges are all dropped later on, the intention is just to get people off the street for a while.

The police have the duty to refuse to carry out unlawful orders, and they should be held accountable for this sort of unconstitutional behavior. We pretty much made "I was only following orders" a discredited defense when we hung Nazis after WWII.

100%

K, that's fine and dandy, why then the secrecy about the warrants?

because they are not done with the raids

because they are not done intimidating hundreds and only arresting a few that I bet you are out of jail come Thursday next week

because they are not done trying to silence voices they don't want to hear

because they are not done taking the rest of our rights

First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petition Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Fifth Amendment – due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain. No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

I suggest everyone read those a couple times and really carefully as from where I sit, everyone of those were violated this week for hundreds of Americans.

To put it another way-- their main interest is not in presenting their point of view-- but rather in preventing others from doing so

That is exactly what the cops are doing.

Why the secrecy about the warrants? because they haven't been written yet. This is a fishing expedition, the warrants will be written latter. Purely criminal behavior by the cops, and very typical.

krishna: Could you provide sources for this supposed violence that they love so much?

Maybe, while you're at it, put it next to the violence of police officers (not just at the RNC)?

quite a shopping list on that warrant. Of course the problem is most of those things could be found around any house at all. It will be interesting to see if they can actually build a case. I suspect that charges will be quietly dismissed after the convention.

Interesting that the sheriff labels them as a criminal group even though no trials have taken place. His statement reads like something from an Imam in Iran.

Exactly, Wheel. Probably 95% of those items are common household items. I mean.. X-boxes, MP3 Players/iPods? Ignitable liquids? Seriously. The only item in the ignitable liquids I don't have is diesel fuel, because I don't own anything that's diesel. If they have assembled bombs, then yes. I understand. But, unassembled? How can that stand up.. anywhere? I have glass bottles all over my house, am I at risk for being raided for having flammable liquids and glass bottles, even though the gas is in the garage, and the glass bottle in my room?

I was just reading an article by Ben Josephs (Here).. And, honestly. I think there's something fishy going on here. Something, along the lines of.. the warrant being issued after the raid, maybe? I mean, it could be completely coincidental.. but.. yeah...

He went on to list the various items that were taken from 627 Smith Avenue: "common household items such as jars, soap and matches" and "computers, Xboxes, cameras, cell phones, banner making material, masks and puppets." - Tony Jones, RNC Welcoming Committee Member

The ones that caught my eye were mainly "Xboxes", and "puppets". In the warrant that blinkin posted, the warrants lists:

Hollowed out puppets

and

Electronic devices, including but not limited to, MP3 players (including but not limited to iPods), X-Box gaming systems, cellular phones and personal digital assistants (PDAs).

I think the mention of X-Boxes was a little odd, but just coincidental. I can catch the drift, because of the ability to modify a X-Box for use as a normal computer. But, as far as I know, most of the modern gaming systems are able to do this (PSP as a handheld computer, Wii, PS3). So, it may just be completely coincidental.

The mention of puppets really made me do a double take. I'm not a cop, or anything. But, how often does a warrant specify to look for hallowed out puppets?

I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist, or anything. But, it seems like everything that they listed in this warrant, was found one way or another in the houses they raided.

I said the same thing in #23.4. The warrant was written after the fact. This was a fishing expedition in fact and purely criminal behavior on the part of the authorities. Both the police and the people who authorized this, as well as the judge who signed off on this fictional warrant.

Haha, sorry about that. Didn't see that. :)

blinkin: The warrant STILL has to be shown to the owners of the home, or the person the building was left with. It doesn't have to be posted on the community bulletin 3 weeks before it's done, but the police can't say "Well, we have a warrant. But, we're not quite ready to show it to you. We'll let you know."

And, do you have a link to the police saying they have an informant?

See the problem blinkin is this, if you don't show the warrant up front, then you allow some people to draw the conclusion that the warrant you did show at the end of the raid was that it could have been drawn up during the raid to detail items that were seized.

It opens up the challenge, why open the challenge and not show it upon entry? Unless of course you are doing something you shouldn't be or don't care about the challenge. Both are bad for the citizens of our country if either are true and I'm not saying they are but the approach taken does open it up for speculation and concerns.

Probably 95% of those items are common household items

Expect a series of raids on Home Depots across town....

You still have no proof of ANY specific violent threat of a crime nor any proof of already committed crimes. As far as the list of phyical evidence the laid out, there are alot of people with much of that stuff in their homes right now with the exception of the urine, throwing knives and homemade caltrops. I will say there's some smoke but that's not enough to pronounce them convicted.

All you have is the word of a sheriff and a video that did contain some violent imagery but that video is quite probably protected speech whether you like it or not. See that video COULD in all likelihood be the basis for the warrants in the first place. But you know what, if it is and it's protected by the 1st amendment, all the evidence they found using that video as the basis for the warrants could be garbage and not admissible in a criminal trial. Yeah, I'm speculating but I'm not trying to act like I know something that I don't either.

As to those who have been arrested and otherwise detained, at this point they could (and probably will) file suit for violation of civil rights. Scoff if you like. It won't be the first time this has happened. Now with the changes in our rights over the last two years, I can't say those suits will be successful but you can bet your A$$ they get filed.

Thing is you sit here and try to tell me they are guilty. There have been no trials at this point, innocent until proved guilty is our standard unless we are talking about enemy combatants and that would send a very bad signal to Americans and the world. We have jack and $hit to go on, you are grasping at straws about what the hell is going on and so is everyone else watching this drama unfold.

Stop pretending you know what the hell is happening and that those KIDS are some kind of serious criminals until it is at least known what they are charged with and some of the evidence against them as individuals, for all we know that physical evidence came a little from here, a little from there, and a little from over here. They raided lots of places, they stopped buses on the freeways, they pulled bikers over, etc etc etc . . . .

Your own words, "This doesn't SEEM like innocent people". What's an innocent person seem like? You don't know squat more about what is going on than the next guy. Cut the rhetoric, cut the conviction without evidence, just cut the $hit until we know what is really happening.

Maybe there were some bad ones in there and you'll get to feel vindicated with your predictions, I hope not personally. But at least 99% of those people they detained are going to walk with no charges, if not every single one of them. Mark my words.

These people were planning to do some real damage and cause a riot and injure people. Your denials nothwithstanding.

These peoples rights were abrogated and ignored by the authorities, your denials not withstanding.

I noticed that you failed to quote the rest of the article concerning the validity of these charges.

Still I say no specific charges have been made on an individual yet. Got nothing, I'm telling you they'll like be released Wednesday or Thursday. The police have already tipped their hand by releasing the list of evidence, no specific charges were made even on those they have held in custody at this point. NADA ZIP

Yep, ya did :)

Yes you did, and I appreciate that. I was just pointing out that the article goes on the state that the state has a shaky case at best and may not prosecute.

As for that list of stuff: I live on a farm and do construction work. I have many of those things on my place including, axe, hatchet, sledge hammer, wedges, gas for lawn mower and mixed with oil for weed eater, detergent, chicken wire and barbed wire, pipe (also angle iron, nails and screws), knives and a machete, bolt cutter, old tires, locks (although not Kryptonite locks, those are expensive, and why are locks on the list anyway?), empty plastic buckets and empty glass jars,( I call them drinking glasses, others call them jelly jars). The point is that being in possession of those things is not defacto evidence of intention to commit sabotage.

This is pretty clearly an attempt by the police to stifle legitimate protest.

What can they do with those shields? I've been to the protests before; they're for the front line to carry for theatrics, and for defense against overzealous riot cops.

The rest of the items, urine and caltrops aside, anybody would have. The bolt cutters are for cutting down temporary fences. Frankly, I don't see a problem with stopping the buses or throwing piss on politicians, if that is indeed what they had planned. It's not "violence," though.